Mythic + Dungeons and YOU

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Bladebreaker
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Re: Mythic + Dungeons and YOU

Post by Bladebreaker » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:39 am

So. It's very early in the morning and I probably won't be able to write as clearly as this thread deserves. But here goes.

The disappearance of the controversial posts was not due to action by either me or Bregdark. There seems to have been a rollback of the whole site to 10/6, as multiple posts are gone, such as my post about this week's raid, which wasn't the least bit dramatic.

There's probably a lot of good ways to handle this; I have no idea what they are. Rather than pretend it never happened, I'm going to write a sum-up, that I'm sure will make nobody happy and only exacerbate the problem, but what the hell a guy can only try.

Chain of events:
1) I wrote a wordy post about how it's reasonable to want people to do more to be inclusive in their grouping, but that we can't mandate it and all we can do is try to be personally better.
2) Kaylia responded with an ummmm extremely colorful post using rather vivid and harsh language by mortal standards stating that people being exclusive and ignoring the needs of other guild members was unacceptable in her book and that she would insist on harassing people if they persisted in being exclusive or cliquish.
3) Kelissa responded stating that Kaylia is mean spirited and toxic in how she interacts with people in guild.
4) Ardeshir pinged me about the thread, so I locked it.
5) Some people contacted me directly with varying opinions. Some felt that Kaylia's language and approach was too harsh and wasn't acceptable. Others felt that Kelissa's response was a personal attack and wasn't acceptable. Others felt that both were unacceptable. Others felt that they wanted to go sit in a corner and cover their ears and make the bad thoughts go away. Wait... that was just me. Also one person pointed out that this was all my fault for invoking the spirit of "Spell hit and YOU" with my thread title. Shut up, Shane.
6) I had a long talk with Kaylia about the post and the drama. I've told her that I think the language went too far, although the intentions were noble, and that people were taking it personally. Kay was trying to garner a response and get people to pay attention, and in that regard I think she succeeded... just at a certain cost due to the style of its delivery. Kay is going to write a post at some point explaining a bit, and I've asked her to put on her "people don't really get me yet" hat while writing it. So watch for that.

That's kind of where I am with it now. There's more ground to be covered here, for sure. This thread is open for more posts, but I ask that everyone be extremely cautious in how they weigh in. In particular, I ask that people avoid making statements about who people are, and instead focus on actions people have taken. Saying simply that someone is "bad" in some way leaves no room for negotiation or understanding. Focus instead on actions. Were the actions appropriate or inappropriate? Why? Actions are things we can control. Generally speaking, who we are is beyond our control.

If you're interested in commenting but you're nervous that it might be too inflammatory, I invite you to email your message to me at bthornt@gmail.com and we can talk about it via email first.

We're adults. I ask that everyone be considerate and deliberate, and also that they not jump too quickly to conclusions and write people off.

I'll just finish by pointing out that all of the above is just from me, one voice (albeit a rather old one) in this community. Bregdark may come in with a very different perspective, but he has real life concerns that are tying him up right now. Thanks folks.
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Re: Mythic + Dungeons and YOU

Post by Bone Lotus » Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:51 pm

Brian kind of summed up what I was going to say, but I will elaborate for a clearer picture.

Some of you know me intimately, some of you know me casually, and some of you have no clue who I am. Allow me to illuminate for those who may be in the dark. I am a fairly loving person, willing to consort with and assist most people. In addition, I am a fairly hateful person, willing to sling vitriol and light fires under just about anyone's ass. These things are not mutually exclusive. Further, it ought not be misunderstood that a loving action necessarily indicates love for the recipient, nor that a hateful action necessarily indicates hate for the recipient. Especially on the latter instance, I am often entrusting my audience to permit me to vent, as I likely view them as an ally of sorts.

I use sensational, extreme, and colourful terminology for the purpose of expressing my passion and to bring acute attention to a topic. So if I hurt feelings with my disappeared post, I am genuinely sorry. My intent was not to cause harm. My intent was to bring up an issue I feel intensely strong about, and to do so in a manner that caught the most attention. Granted, I knew that I could become the villain in doing so, but I saw it as the most prudent course of action (whil'st staying true to my own methodology).

What I have witnessed here is a clash of cultures. My approaches and paradigm regarding addressing people I trust and consider "friends" include the most crude imagery and vulgar argot available to my lips (or fingers in the case of a keyboard). This indicates passion and trust. This has not been an issue until I joined the Umbral Advent. This is not to say that the problem lies in the laps of the guild members. Not at all. I am simply pointing out that there is a difference of culture; the approach we take with friends differs greatly. Many fine folks in the UA do not interpret my behaviour as fun-loving diatribes of a bitter, jaded, but loving gal. They seem to be experienced as personal attacks or sincere loathing for individuals.

Allow me to state right now that I have never loathed anyone in the Umbral Advent before. Never. Frustrated with actions? Sure. Bemused by choices or statements? Absolutely. Though sincere animosity just never came into my mind until recently.

Allow me to address the tauren-turned-belf in the room. Hiamovi/Kelissa clearly does not approve of my actions, and has vocally tied my actions to a claim against my person (or at least, my likability). I will not dispute the claims, nor fight Hiamovi about it. Why? Because I've always thought of Hia as a friend; the same kind of friend I view the rest of the guild. I have considered you all pretty fucking hip cats, with varying levels of "badassitude".

Granted, Hia has been riding my shit about my vocal outbursts of late (prior to the forum debacle). This really bewildered me more than anything. I shall point out where I believe communication broke down. I talk shit. Like, LOTS of shit. I talk shit about things I disapprove of. I talk shit about things that could use improvement. I talk shit about stuff I even like sometimes. All my shit-talking is just an expression of frustration. I have strong opinions, and I complain and whine and moan about the objects of those opinions. I do so in very vibrant terminology.

What I would like you, the reader, to take home from all of this is acknowledgement of who my audience is: my friends. I don't go whining to strangers, I don't go whining to very casual acquaintances, I whine to people I give a shit about. This makes the most sense to me, as I believe this to be one of the primary functions of friends. Whom else can I trust to hear me out, to listen to my sorrow, and to be supportive, even if they don't agree? A true friend. I offer the same ears and support to any of my friends, as I hope they do for me.

That being said, my opinions are just that: opinions. They are my perspectives on particular topics, and nothing more. They are not personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with me. It appears that this is how they have been interpreted. Take a look at Jacob (Vivimord). That bloke and I disagree on most topics regarding WoW. Like, full on dichotomous views at times. I'll talk mean trash about some facet of the game, going on about how I think it is utter rubbish and using hyperbole on how it might just be the worst thing ever. Many times, Jacob has disagreed, and pointed out what he likes about said facet of the game.

The end result? Two friends had a chat. One vented her frustrations, the other listened, spoke his own opinions, and the topic ended. It is my firm belief that Jacob did not feel like my hatred of the game was a personal attack upon him or his opinions. He stated them without fear, and I held no animosity for him.

I am saddened by the fact that Hiamovi does not interpret my behaviours as such, viewing me as toxic. From the moment Hiamovi joined the guild, I have been rather fond of the player. The recent attacks on my complaints (again, prior to the forum postings) had me truly perplexed, as I did not understand why Hia would be so upset by my ramblings. It has been made clear now, and I hope this clarifies what my intent is in my heavy-handed speeches. If Hia wants to be my friend, knowing this about me, then I am thrilled by the prospect. If Hia cannot abide by this, then I'll be sad to lose someone I considered a friend.

As for my original forum post, I did what I felt needed to be done, and said what I felt needed to be said. Not that I actually think you fuckers are actually shit-sipping assclowns.... well, I dunno, maybe you are, but I am not privy to that aspect of your lives. I hold you all in high esteem. I was simply speaking with shocking adjectives for the purpose of bringing attention to the matter. More importantly, I wanted to stress the significance so that no one is left behind or hurt by the negligence of the few. My stance on harassment and shaming tactics were only with the intent to inspire others to be more cognizant and thoughtful of those around them. My strategies are not nice, but that's how I do love. My threats of leaving the guild were only to ruffle feathers, as many of us have grown too complacent in our in-game routines and activities.

I am totally open to responses, reflections, criticisms, and the like. I get that some of you may not want my friendship, knowing it comes with lots of whining and tons of "fuck you"s. That's hip too. Just let me know what you want, and I will do my best to accommodate. As I was telling Brian last night, the notion of a guild with members who actually loathe one another does not a guild make. I have participated with guilds where people genuinely disliked one another. The last one I did was called Low Red Moon. They imploded. They never recovered. They are history. In my opinion, that is an absolute certainty, an inevitability, when there are guildmates who don't like one another. If enough of you dislike me for my attitude, I also would not be opposed to leaving for the sake of the guild's cohesion. Just communicate with me, and I'll do what I can (within the realm of possibility) to rectify the matter.

Just don't expect to me stop talking shit. I will forever talk shit. Also, fuck you all, you cock-gobbling, jizz-chugging, piss-guzzling douche-nozzles. ^_^
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Re: Mythic + Dungeons and YOU

Post by Bregdark » Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:51 pm

Thanks both Kay and BB for the eloquent posts.

I'm still drowning in work and personal stuff, and sorry to be absent -- haven't logged into game since Saturday but might be able to make it tonight.

I will say just this: I love all you guys. I love the guild. I don't want there to be drama.

Let me tell a story about Kaylia: For many years, her modus operandi has been to log on and ask, "Does anyone need help with anything?" She's willing to run any low level instance, farm up runeweed, whatever you need. For her, the game revolves around RP and helping her friends.

That's the Kay I know and love.

Hia is cut of much the same cloth. So is Silfie. So are most of us.

The game is not worth getitng into arguments about. The friendships are, those are what's important.

Just love each other.

Sometimes it'll happen that someone else does something you don't like. That'll happen in UA, in WoW, at the bus stop, at work, on a forum, or in your house.

The hardest lesson I've ever learned in life was to talk to the person about it, directly, 1:1, privately, saying what I liked or didn't like about what happened.

We're all mature and good people.

I promise you bad things happen when you complain about someone either behind their back or publicly. (Especially at work.) And instead, good things will happen when you approach someone in private and say, "Can I talk to you for a minute? I just want to let you know how I reacted when I saw x. And I wanted to understand your point of view and why you did that."

I am here if that approach doesn't work or is too much for you to bear.

My cell is 408-242-5226. You can text me 24/7/365.25 about anything that happens in-game that you want to discuss with me, even if I'm not online or in-game.

To repeat: I love you. I love the guild. Let's be friends, or at least be friendly.
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Re: Mythic + Dungeons and YOU

Post by Hiamovi » Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:20 pm

Ok, let me first clarify something. Kaylia, I don't really know you personally, and I don't really know the person you are at your core. The way you present yourself publicly can make me a bit uncomfortable at times, because you do have a tremendous amount of outward vitriol, but that's just your public display. It may very well not be who you are at your core. It was inappropriate of me to comment about your character, as I don't really know the real you. For that, I do offer sincere apologies.

Now as to the exchange in this thread, and the reason I responded the way I did. What I saw, to me, was you publicly eviscerating fellow guild mates. Folks I consider to be friends. And it was in a manner which I deemed to be incredibly incompatible with everything I knew/know about this guild. You were hate shamming people. By your own words, you were intentionally attempting to make a certain group of players feel bad about themselves for the way they choose to play the game. You said it was deliberate, and you said you had no intention of stopping.

In large part, this had been building up for a while. I could tell, I'm sure we all could, that you had been frustrated with many things going on this expansion. What I was seeing was a ramping up of your acting on these frustrations. It started with some of, what I felt were, passive aggressive little comments aimed at a select group of people. Little snips to make people uncomfortable, dealing with "the cool kids" or the "haves vs. have nots", etc. I spoke to Blade a little bit about my concerns, and nothing happened(that I saw). Then I said the other day in guild chat (paraphrased slightly) "Hey, someone just whispered me and said our guild has awesome people". You responded with "Some of them aren't" followed by "I stand by my statement" after I asked for clarification. Statements like that seemed to take things beyond frustrated "joking" around, at least to me. It seemed like an active put down on our guild members. Again I spoke to Blade, to try to keep things private and not create drama, and again nothing happened (that I saw). Then Blade made his post in this thread, and brought a lot of these frustrations public. I then watched as you, as far as your words went at least, started publicly and actively hate shamming people. Since Blade was the one that opened this to the public discussion at this point, and seeing as I'd had little private feedback other then (again, paraphrasing) "That's just Kay, she's really a nice person on the inside", I felt I couldn't just sit by and watch my guild members get publicly attacked like that. I'm pretty damn protective of my friends, and sitting by and watching that happen without any response isn't something I could do.

As I told Blade last night...this guild is made up of all kinds of people. We've got folks from all walks of life, different countries, different cultures, religions, ethnicity, political views, etc, etc. The Umbral Advent I know, is a very open and welcoming place. We don't judge, and we take great care in making sure people aren't ashamed to be who they are. Joking around calling people ass clowns, or making crude or colorful remarks to friends and what not...whatever, who cares. I know you don't literally want us to die in a fire. *laughs* But when you, by your own words, came out and said that you were and will actively try to shame people...to make them feel bad about themselves, because they aren't playing a game how you think they should...that crossed a line with me. That's not the Umbral way to handle things, and in that respect, I felt your post was very mean spirited. Maybe you yourself aren't mean, but that course of actions I feel very much is. I'd never want folks in this guild to be made to feel ashamed about who they are, for any reason...that's not Umbral Advent.

Now yes, I will again admit, that attacking your personal character was overstepping. I should not have done that, and I really do apologize for it. But I also do feel, strongly, that your post at least hit a tone that was extremely mean spirited. Certainly way beyond anything I'd ever seen in Umbral, and in my opinion a very dangerous way to treat guild mates. It's my belief that hate shamming should never, ever be tolerated...by anyone, in any circumstance, let alone in this guild. There are far better (and much more friendly) ways to influence people or make a point, other then tearing other people down or making them feel ashamed of who they are.

So once again, I apologize to Kaylia for the targeted nature of my response. I won't, however, offer apologies for defending this guild or the people in it. If I feel anyone is attacking folks in this guild, even other guild members, I'm going to call them on it.
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Re: Mythic + Dungeons and YOU

Post by Ottoparts » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:26 am

I'd like to thank both blade and breg for their eternal patience in dealing with personality conflicts, whether in game or in raid, whether they are simply misunderstandings or larger point of view differences, it's neither easy or simple to be the eternal moderator. Thank you both. It isn't easy to take a step back and understand someone else's point of view, but a great life skill we should all learn, because sometimes what one person sees as a joke another sees as the most horrible insult they've ever heard. The difference between the two isn't easy to explain.
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Re: Mythic + Dungeons and YOU

Post by Zugdaga » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:22 pm

Also one person pointed out that this was all my fault for invoking the spirit of "Spell hit and YOU" with my thread title. Shut up, Shane.
I was totally joking when I mentioned that earlier in the thread, but I'm both amused and saddened by the result.

As someone very much on the sidelines (and someone who didn't see the original posts) I just want to say thank you to Blade and Breggie for keeping this large community together for so long. You guys are exceptional.

I hope everyone can find a way to get along without constantly offending or being offended. <3
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Re: Mythic + Dungeons and YOU

Post by Lajjun » Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:32 am

Zugdaga wrote:
Also one person pointed out that this was all my fault for invoking the spirit of "Spell hit and YOU" with my thread title. Shut up, Shane.
I was totally joking when I mentioned that earlier in the thread, but I'm both amused and saddened by the result.

As someone very much on the sidelines (and someone who didn't see the original posts) I just want to say thank you to Blade and Breggie for keeping this large community together for so long. You guys are exceptional.

I hope everyone can find a way to get along without constantly offending or being offended. <3
I wish I had spoken up more back then. One of those regrets I have that keeps poking at me every so often. <3 So many things back then just baffle me - especially the incredible selfishness of certain characters, and how we were all too nice to say anything. But the past is in the past and all that. Sorry to bring it up! Just wanted to say that to me "the Zugdaga maneuver" and "Spell hit and YOU" are very positive things and in the end good memories. I know it was rough at the time, but it helped sort some people out since they showed themselves for who they were. >:)

I am rambling.
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